Dailykos, Markos Moulitsas - as told by people who know
Well, this has been a really, really long time in the making. I won't bother with the nearly three years of backstory here, but suffice it to say that, among other things, I'm committed to shedding as much light as possible on Dailykos and Markos as possible, and in this case I don't mind using a little bit of PP's accumulated google page-rank to help bury a dishonest broker.
What's the Problem?
The most troubling thing about Dailykos, imo, is that there is an conscious attempt to thwart an open exchange of ideas. Arguments are not allowed to rise or fall on their merits alone, as it takes as few as two site members to get another site members comment "hidden" (if a comment gets less than a 1.0 rating spread over an average of 2 or more it is hidden from everyone but "trusted users"), and bannings happen en masse without any explanation given for those who tread into any one of a bevy of taboo subjects (which are legion, given the site's loyalty to the democratic party, and the egos at Dailykos). Now if as few as two members are given the power to "disappear" people, it would seem that a thinking person must realize that little deathsquads will be popping up all over the place. Coincidentally (or not), the death squads which protect/match Markos' or dem party interests/opinions 'are not a problem'. This is obviously not a good situation from the perspective of facilitating open, honest, and productive long-term communications... (Update: 9/23/06 For a real life, easy to follow example of how systemic and absolute the issues referred to above are, please see this post]
The situation is such that I feel safe to say that if the Dailykos had been operating when Galileo was trying to convince everyone the earth was not flat, I've no doubt he would not have been able to keep his comments from being hidden and/or banned (not that I'm Galileo by a longshot, but I stand by the analogy). The way Dailykos is set up is only useful for maintaining a status quo, it does not seem to encourage talk of paradigm changes, whatsoever. Whether this is an errant structural issue or a conscious effort to control and manipulate things by a few is what is most open to conjecture, imho.
All this above being true, I do realize that in the self-based, non-populist movement at Dailykos, combined with utter Republican ineptitude - a momentum has been created which has not yet seen it's peak. Mark my words though - after the initial euphoria of all the dem victories which will be obtained in November has worn off (through default of no better choice) - people will begin to realize how vacuous the "revolution" was.
It's Still Early, But It's Not Just Me
Billmon, the most high profile and respected former and/or present Dailykos frontpager (and who more than a few believe is the "best" left-leaning blogger period - for whatever that matters), looks like he may have decided to take some swipes at his former alma mater (not exactly - see comments below). Spiritual Leader & Holy Cow were posted by him in the past several days (Holy Cow was posted today), and I'm pretty sure his intention is not to jest with, or flatter Markos at this point. (more below)
In addition to Billmon, jedmunds of Pandagon piles on the 800lb gorilla, in the finale of his review of Markos' new book Crashing the Gate:
"I suspect that a truly enduring movement needs to be united by more than anti-Republicanism or anti-Bushism. And they need to have some idea of what they believe in, or else they won’t exist beyond victory. And I suspect, that if a real progressive movement is to emerge in this country, that Kos and Armstrong, like the Democratic Party itself, will be obstacles to it and not leaders of it."
In Closing
...anyone who comes across this page and has something to contribute (or questions) - please do feel free to comment on any other resources/ancedotes you may have about these subjects. My intention is to provide folks researching Daiykos, Dailykos, or Markos Moulitsas with as much information as possible, so they do not have to rely on the words/(dis)information of those people/outlets alone. Thank you.
No wonder
Given that's you've been banned over at big orange for no reason, then reinstated, then banned again for provoking a conversation about relativity of values.
As you know, I've been hugely recommended with favorable comments from 98% of kossacks in more than one article, but the hit squad is hard to take. There is an out-of-control "cult of personality" going on over there, and some of those personalities are highly dysfunctional.
As I've maintained for a while, while I appreciate Markos for what he's done, he needs to get a vision and stop playing the coy celeb. Either lead, follow, or get out of the way!
I've found brilliance in the comment streams. Some of the "more equal than others" kossacks are actually thinking compassionate people, while others with bigger mouths and favored status are just plain mean-spirited small-minded wannabees.
As one of the community administrators, I speak for this site when I state that we welcome all kossacks here who want a gentler, more thoughtful place to gather without the flame monkeys of big orange giving people a hard time.
"If not here, where? If not now, when?"
No official history here
Just sympathy. As I mentioned before, I posted a couple of times at dKos and have been smacked for the sin of intruding upon private [sic] comments. Then I saw an interview with Kos, and it seemed that the synthesis of where he wanted to go was the development of power within the Democratic Party by accepting its baggage. That to him, this was "reality".
He doesn't seem like much of a gate crasher to me, just another sprout that says one thing, but bends with the wind.
Well, it sounds like you "got it"
with a lot less effort than I did. Hit head on wall ='s bad. Not hit head on wall ='s good.
I specifically left out my own story(ies) to save everyone the distraction and make things as objective as possible. Thanks for sharing m!
"Billmon . . . looks like he
"Billmon . . . looks like he may have decided to take some swipes at his former alma mater."
Oh Jesus no -- I have nothing but enormous respect for Kos, even when I don't agree with him. I was just poking fun at Charlie Cook for calling Markos a "spiritual leader," and I guess maybe a little bit at kossaks who can't seem to keep things in a reasonable perspective.
Plus I thought Swami Kos was funny.
Fair enough.
I'll update my post. Knew I was working on an assumption, but I thought it was a safe one. Thanks for stopping by.
Update: Actually, I just heavily updated my post. Was orginally hoping to get-by with being lazy and just throwing out a "because Billmon sez so", but because that's partially gone now I had to reinforce things a little bit more with, you know, some actual information.
Since this was originally posted...
...Billmon has greatly expanded his comments made here.
First, Galileo
Galileo was not trying to convince people that the world was round, but that it was not the center of the solar system, i.e., he pronounced that the earth revolved around the sun, not the other way around as had been believed up until then.
Having said that . . . I share your pain. I spent 3 years posting at dKos, finally got so sick of what it had turned into, a consortium of personality cults devoted to people who were every bit as hypocritical, unprincipled, and greedy as the GOPeratives and timid Democratic party hacks they criticized. The Passion Of Maryscott O'Connor cult was bad enough, but the Armandildos and their concerted attacks on anyone who dared point out that their idol was an autocratic lout were finally what convinced me that the site was not to be taken seriously as a means to effect change in the Democratic Party and society at large. I removed all of my diaries, and would have deleted all of my (now archived) comments if I could have.
I also got tired of the way professional political operatives would come on the site and lie about who they were and what they hoped to accomplish.
dKos is a now essentially a brand name, with subsidiaries, and associated enterprises. This Yearly Kos session in Las Vegas is confirmation that they are primarily interested in becoming one more pressure group that can seduce politicians with freebie outings to exotic locales.
Working for political and social change is best done in face-to-face environments. It is simply too easy to lie about who you are and what your motives are on the Internet.
Good luck with this, hope you get a good response. I'd be interested to hear what other disenchanted Kossacks have to say.
With apologies to Galileo...
...thanks for your comment.
I agree with many of your general assessments of the site/community and/or the motives behind it all...and even though we're not inclined toward listing the same set of antagonists, your comment still brings up a lot of good points/questions about what happens to someone who crosses opinions with any one of the more-preeminent-issues/personalities at the Dailykos.
In the interest of documentation, a little more detail from you in that regard might be useful, btw - particularly anything that constituted harrassment and/or censorship. One could assume that you weren't 'just disgruntled' at simply being 'challenged' on your opinions - but on the basis of your comments alone, that's all one could do (assume, that is). Not trying to be insensitive mind you, am just trying to make this page read as objectively as it can.
Sorry to limit it to specific
Sorry to limit it to specific individuals already named, but . . .
What really pushed me beyond the limits of tolerance was that Armando would pick fights with people, insult them with remarkably vulgar and vapid posts along the lines of "you're a fucking idiot, you goddam, fucking asshole!", and when the object of his abuse would complain, he/she would be set upon by a group of people who'd hector him/her for daring to criticize Armando, eventually giving out troll ratings while showering Armando with "4s". Since the people joining in the mugging were often the same people - mcjoan, Bob Johnson, Delaware Dem, cookiebear most frequently as I recall - it began to look very much as if this was not coincidental. My guess is they were sending emails back and forth to call for backup. Anybody giving Armando, or any of his cohorts, the troll ratings they deserved found themselves banned.
I complained about this a number of times to Kos, and another FPer whose handle I won't mention. Kos never responded. However, I was informed by the FPer that Kos himself was not happy about Armando's behavior, and he would be reined in once Kos had finished writing his book. Obviously, that didn't happen. Then when I'd have exchanges with Armando, he would complain that I had smeared him behind his back with emails full of lies, blah, blah, blah, in posts full of typos that suggested he wasn't exactly sober. Other comments of his directed to other people also suggested that he spent a lot of time viewing other websites, such as Liberal Street Fighter, to see what people had to say about him there. BTW, he initiated these discussions with me in virtually all instances, I had long ago decided he was someone who wasn't worth chatting with.
As much as anything, this was the diary and comment thread that made me realize that dKos was no longer a place I felt comfortable. Check out his comments. They tell you everything you need to know.
Thanks for the additional explanation.
I'm in the unlikely role of steward here, so I'll save the commentary on anything specific you wrote save that which pertain to censorship and/or abuse of people at Dailykos. In this regard, the money quote of your comment is this:
"...would pick fights with people, insult them with remarkably vulgar and vapid posts along the liness of "you're a fucking idiot, you goddam, fucking asshole!", and when the object of his abuse would complain, he/she would be set upon by a group of people who'd hector him/her for daring to criticize (fill-in the blank), eventually giving out troll ratings
People can swap out names and/or issues for "fill-in-the-blank" but the result is the same. This is what I'm talking about. Not an open exchange of ideas whereby things rise and fall on their validity. Not hardly. People get censored off the site long before that.
The additional names you listed are definitely people I've experienced serious issues with, btw. Think there are scads of folks who could say the same.
The Passion of the Cult
Aw, jesus, JJB. It's got so I don't even know anymore how this all came to pass. I remember one day being troll rated into oblivion because I used an AIDS joke as a diary title... and shortly thereafter being canonised as the Great and Powerful MSOC.
It's a function of any population explosion, I suppose -- the more people there are, the more schmucks there are.
As for Markos, I tend to agree with Caleb and jedmunds. Frankly, I think the dude is still mostly an old-school Republican; and while I LONG for the days of the old school Republicans as my nemeses... make no mistake, they're still my nemeses. I am a fucking LIBERAL. I defy Markos to call himself that and then explain it in 203 words or less. He's not a liberal; ain't nothin' wrong with that, there are plenty of decent centrists in the world, plenty of decent conservatives, too. But the Republicans have the market cornered on conservatism, the Democrats are already too fucking centrist... just where, exactly, is a dyed-in-the-wool leftist to turn, so to speak?
I can't follow a leader who's headed for the middle.
Would like to state for the record...
...that I think Maryscott is one of the good guys (gals). I can't speak to what anyone who supports her has or has not done, but from what I've seen she actually spends quite a bit of time getting slammed by the very same people you list JJB.
In my estimation Maryscott may be still figuring out who is or isn't a friend (aren't we all) - and that process may have its own ups and downs - but I've not seen her thirst for the blood of someone just for disagreeing with her.
It's all good, as Robert would say...
In fact, the posts about the WaPo story on Maryscott led me to a piece by Nonpartisan distinguishing between anger and wrath, which was exactly what I needed to get another blog started that I had been musing on for awhile...
Also, Maryscott, if you're reading this, I have to say that your response to the story, and especially to the posts/comments, etc., was very magnanimous and generous.
Am thinking of something cogent to say
about issues raised here. Many possible dimensions of exploration and discovery. I believe it's the very beginning of a major morphing of the political blogosphere, as many have been asking questions that need discussion, if we're to have any kind of social contract. That way it comes out of being a thousand voices in search of an identity to an integrated force majure, a thousand headed free thinking hydra. It still astonishes me how much separateness, competition, and classism there is in cyberspace. Thank God for places where we can have an honest discussion without a flame war breaking out. That includes My Left Wing, an amazing salon. Civil dialogues are critical if we're to be effective at all. To state the obvious in quoting the august Professor Franklin, "...either we all hang together or else most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
"If not here, where? If not now, when?"
Armando on the Couch?
Any shrinks in the house? Well I probably shouldn't even post as I basically read and occasionally post at Kos and MLW as entertainment and am a lightweight relative to most of the major thinkers in those parts. Plus outside of casting a vote for the Dem in 04 I've done nothing politically. My comment however is out of all the blog heavies I've read MSOC comes across as, how shall I say, a warm and above all, a TRUSTWORTHY individual. The others? Brilliant, yeah, learned, yeah, HUMAN? WARM? TRUSTWORTHY? NOT. Pretty cold blooded and vicious I would say. I think getting rid of the ratings system would solve a lot of problems at DK. Or how about a blog without any names? That'd solve the cult of personality conundrum pretty quick.
It has become Orwell's Animal Farm - "blog stars" rule
the whole thing is starting to look like "Animal Farm"... "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"
focus is being placed on "blog stars." It used to be that your average Joe or Jane could have their voices heard, but now that has gone, it is who you know and what you say about the "blog stars." If one dares say something bad, you will beat and shunned. What I find very interesting, those who left to create their own group because they were troll rated or got ganged up on, still go back as if they really enjoyed the abuse they got. Why? DKos will continue do be the way it is because people continue to find excuses for the offender, therefore, why should it change. Lets call it like it is, those who attack as hard as they do, are considered abusers. And some of them are really good psychological abusers. There is one that always holds true, an abuser will never change and don't think they will. People rather not see it can cloak it around key words such as pride, defending, or so other bullshit term. The question that really needs to be asked, if you were in a relationship with a person who is willing to humiliate you and constantly berate you? Most likely no, some would think you were in an abusive relationship.
If people actually took off their "blog star" colored glasses, they would actually end up realizing these are people they would not really hang out with because of their abusive language or behavior in real life. So there is no reason to do it online as well. When a person gets bashed verbally enough, they will start believing what is actually being told to them.
glad your doing this.
Here's my top ten...or twenty or so. Cross-posted elsewhere.
Well, the abusive CHUMs at DKos have managed to troll me right out of there. At least it appears that way. I can't edit my own diaries or post comments. BooHooHoo.
I'm curious to know from the users here if many have had the same experience when they've stood up to the small group that seems to feel they can do as they please because they have the power (virtual though it may be) to troll rate. I don't care about not being there, I was rarely there as it was and so lost my Trusted User Status.
But I have noticed a pattern from my first days. Someone posts a comment or a diary that people don't like. Not one that could be considered trollish as defined by Dkos, and then the CHUMs show up. These are those on DKos that are the true trolls. They troll around and seem to gravitate toward the diaries that are getting the most hits, most often than not because of a flame war created by these same sycophants. They then make childish remarks and sometimes call you a name. They more often than not ALWAYS throw the first punch. When you stand up to them, they circle like a pack of wolves and move in. The sad part is that most of them can't even hold a decent argument nor do they write well enough to contribute to an elementary school newspaper much less a nationally recognized political blog.
I've noticed certain traits among them. One is that they almost never provide the person they're trolling with a substantive argument and then, when that person has grown tired of their banal arguments and boils it down to a very truthful "You're an asshole" they go nuts, and accuse you of behaving exactly as they have been behaving all along.
Second is that they are very narcissistic. They will never attempt at a reconciliation because to them, it is war. If you attack in kind, you are always wrong. If you post about what a hypocritical ass they are, you get hit with lame recipes and more name calling. usually a lot of comments about you whining which, of course, is exactly what they've been doing all along themselves.
Third is that the almost always abuse the user definitions of what a troll rating is and then ignore ones rebuttal completely. It's the hall mark of a sociopath to, when caught in a lie, go right one with what ever they're doing and not blink an eye. No remorse, never wrong. I'm not saying they are sociopaths, but there are similarities.
The most striking thing is that they act EXACTLY like the NeoCons, to the letter. If you say that, then look out because how dare you call them on it. It must be hard to run around in the guise of a Progressive yet act like a NeoCon. Attack with out substance and then blame who ever they've attacked for the attack, and then punish those who speak truth to (perceived) power.
They are a real piece of work and a blister on the landscape of progressive thought. How can one call oneself a progressive only to then stifle others from their opinions and, in the process, consistently abuse what little power you have been given in trust to keep the community open to ideas and discourse, even if you don't like what is being said?
As long as there is a substantive argument, how can it be bad? That's a lot different than someone simply responding "you suck" which, if that were the comment in and of itself, not one brought on by being pushed in that direction by a CHUM or having been troll rated inappropriately, then a troll rating is what would be deserved.
Here is a list of so-called progressive posters on Daily kos that act like NeoCons. I have coined a word, CHUM, that defines them. I just wanted to share them with the world as, insulated in their community, they abuse what little power they think they have.
als10
arbiter
BarbinMD
begone
Bouwerie Boy
Brubs
Bulldawg
cowgirl
danger durden
DawnG
Dems2004
Do Tell
Flirtin with Disaster
Grannus
hopscotch1997
labradog
melvin
nasarius
perro amarillo
Plutonium Page
rafaelh
Rita in DC
sele
Shef
shpilk
William Domingo
Zergle
Thanks for sharing your story Patriot.
Sounds like you've had a belly full...
I had the same experience!
I'm in a big hurry, but check this out, my post
"KingCast notes it is settled: Daily Kos and Markos Moulitsas run a fascist regime."
http://christopher-king.blogspot.com/2006/09/kingcast-notes-it-is-settle...
It's all true.
Ahhh. Catharsis.
:-)